'This isn't the time of the Israelite prophets, when disaster struck in spite of their warnings, because the people didn't wake up. I think Europe has woken up'
Sir Martin Gilbert. 'People don't like Jews.'
Photo: Ariel Jerozolimski
'A seed won't germinate on infertile soil," says acclaimed British-Jewish historian Sir Martin Gilbert about the ease with which anti-Semitic sentiment seems to be spreading. He then quotes a passage from a letter written to Winston Churchill by a concerned colleague who refers to the "hereditary antipathy against the Jewish race."
This passage appears in his upcoming book, Churchill and the Jews - the latest of several dozen major works, among them: The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe During the Second World War; Churchill: A Life; The First World War; The Second World War; A Comprehensive History of Israel; and A History of the Twentieth Century.
A regular visitor to Israel ("I try to come two or three times a year"), Churchill's official biographer - who just turned 70 - is here this time to attend Jerusalem's annual International Book Fair, where he delivered a talk Wednesday on "What Jews can learn from history."
What, indeed, can anyone learn from history, when it appears to repeat itself in such full force - or at least in new forms, like that of the threat to Western civilization being posed by the current "barbarism" of radical Islam and its apologists?
The answer, it turns out, is at once utterly simple and completely complex. On the one hand, asserts Sir Martin over breakfast at the King David Hotel, "Each nation has to know what it stands for... The weakness in many [Western] countries is the lack of clarity about the bedrock of their existence. And it is that bedrock which has to be defended."
On the other hand, he insists, nothing is at it appears while it is going on. "What you see when you [examine archives opened only 30 years after an event] is that the people you imagined had been strong were weak; the people you thought weak were strong; and things you thought couldn't possibly be taking place were taking place."
Hmmm. If so, one can only wait with anticipation to see whether Sir Martin will take up the offer - which he says he's "mulling" - to write a biography of former prime minister Ariel Sharon.
Would you assess the current discourse on Israel as anti-Semitic?
Anti-Semitism certainly plays a major part. People don't like Jews. It's legitimate to dislike people. But anti-Semitism is liking Jews even less than is permissible in sane discourse.
Do you think that criticism of Israel is a way of using permissible discourse to express dislike of Jews?
When one goes to debates, such as [London Mayor Ken] Livingstone's [event last month, titled "A World Civilization or a Clash of Civilizations?" - at which he debated Middle East Forum director Daniel Pipes], the difference between legitimate criticism, based on rational arguments, and anti-Semitic criticism, not based on answerable facts, but rather on nonsense, becomes clear quite quickly.
What do you mean by "nonsense"?
The theme of the Livingstone event was multiculturalism. Its subtext was that the only intolerance one ever finds in London is that against Muslims.
Livingstone spoke very mellifluously. The only time he began to rant was when he was talking about Israel. The point he made was that Israel had no legitimacy - he even called its existence a "travesty."
When, in response, somebody asked him about the November 1947 UN vote for a Jewish state, he said: "Ah, the United Nations then was dominated and controlled by the United States, which didn't want the 100,000 Jewish survivors of the Holocaust to go to America, so it voted to establish the State of Israel to keep the Jews out."
Is there a connection between anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism?
At the moment, anti-Americanism is very strong in Western Europe and in Britain. America's perceived unconditional support for Israel - which is one of these things upon which an incredible amount of myth is built - is a black mark. Then there is the belief of Jewish dominance over America, an example of which can be seen in the recent report about AIPAC and in former US president Jimmy Carter's book.
How much of this is mere "nonsense," accepted by ignorant people who don't know the facts, and how much an intellectual tool anti-Semites are happy to use as justification?
I think it is more the latter. A seed won't germinate on infertile soil. I just finished a book, which is being published in June, on Churchill's relationship with the Jews and the Zionists. On one occasion when Churchill was arguing the case for a Jewish state, one of his conservative colleagues wrote him: "You don't understand that you are going to stir up the hereditary antipathy against the Jewish race."
What would Churchill have said about the Israeli government's response to attack over the last few years?
He always quoted the French saying, "Cet animal est mechant." This animal is dangerous; when you attack him, he defends himself.
A nation has to defend itself. In the 1930s, when the whole fabric of Western civilization was under attack by Nazism - even before a single shot had been fired, or a single German soldier had crossed a border - Churchill said, "We're under attack and we have to defend ourselves; we have to know what it is we stand for."
Do you see a parallel between Churchill's attitude and that of George Bush after 9/11?
The war against the Taliban and al-Qaida was an example of defending yourself, even when your borders weren't being breached by armies.
Is there not a greater problem today than during World War II identifying the enemy?
The real problem is that each nation has to know what it stands for - what ideology it adheres to. The weakness in many [Western] countries is the lack of clarity about the bedrock of their existence. And it is that bedrock which has to be defended. More than borders, because borders are less and less under attack.
