Even in terms of what happened after the state was established, it isn’t like 1948-1967 was one homogeneous period. There was a burst of creation of new settlements after the creation of the state. In terms of the kibbutz movement, it was much less successful than pre-state kibbutzim. By the 1960s, that was drying up. In fact, in 1967, there were major plans for downsizing the Settlement Division of the Jewish Agency.In terms of land use, the state’s attitude toward the Arab minority in Israel was one in which the state had not made a transition from being a movement for the Jews toward one of responsibility for all the people in the state. But the fact that Arabs [inside the Green Line] had the vote is what created the political pressure to release them from the military government in 1966. After 1967, you have a large population of Arabs living under military government [in the West Bank and Gaza], but it doesn’t grant citizenship to [those] Arabs. The “solution” was that Jews who settled in the territories were treated as if they lived inside Israel, in terms of government statistics and voting [while the Arabs who lived in those areas were not].You mention the Arabs who became “present absentees” in Israel after 1948. These are the ones who fled their villages and nevertheless ended up living in Israel as what some call “internal refugees.” You mention a figure for them of 75,000 in 1950; that would have been half the Arab population at that time, which means half of the country’s Arabs today are part of this category. That seems like a massive exaggeration.I present this as an estimate. I think it is conceivable that one out of every two was displaced within Israel. More research is necessary. For instance, part of the people living in Acre after May 1948 were people who lived there before, but on the other hand, there had been people fleeing into the city. There are similar stories in Taiba and in Nazareth.Another issue that concerns you inside the Green Line is the attacks on Israel’s democracy. You write that the acceptance committees that more than 1,000 communities here use should be “consigned to the history books.” What about the kibbutz acceptance committees? Every time I have asked whether they are similar, people say that the kibbutz is somehow special, and all the other communities’ acceptance committees are racist.
I have heard stories over the years of kibbutzim making questionable decisions on membership. The difference between a kibbutz and yishuv kehilati [communal settlement] is that in the classic kibbutz you accept new members as an economic [partner], and it is more intensively communal. That doesn’t mean there were not discriminatory kibbutzim. But the essential justification was about them being an economic partner.In giving that answer, I am not commenting on the issue of discrimination. What happened was that a model that had some justification in one circumstance was applied to another one. To the extent that something is just a suburb [as is the case with privatized kibbutzim], it shouldn’t have an acceptance committee.In your conclusion, with your discussion of “separation of synagogue and state” and in mentioning the US motto “All men are created equal,” you seem to support creating a mini- America in Israel, with some modifications. Is that the case? The one aspect of the American form of democracy that I am advocating is the separation of church and state. I am not one of those American immigrants who thinks that just because it was done there, it should be done here. I reject the idea of a constitution. I don’t know if a constitution adopted in 1949 or today would be good for democracy; in fact, it would institutionalize problems. I think a parliamentary system has many advantages. The idea of “all men created equal” is worth following, but should be different.Given everything you have written and seen over the years, are you optimistic about the future? I am making no predictions. That is one thing I have learned [after] being in Israel so long.