You have said that you want to bring the social protests into politics. What does that entail on a practical level? We in Meretz have a commitment to equality. Our point of departure is equality with no differences regarding religion, race, gender… and we are obligated to make all of the citizens of the country equal, as well as the residents who are not citizens and the refugees and foreign workers.We want to change Israel’s order of priorities. Our inside the limits of the State of Israel. That’s our battle.Lapid stated that he sees the recent cases of highprofile haredi extremism as a reaction to increasing openness and integration coming from that sector. What do you make of this? I very much believe in integration. I believe that the exit from poverty for the haredi sector is of necessity connected to their lack of integration in the workplace.This obligates two things: the first being the study of secular subjects.It is impossible to integrate haredim into the secular, democratic world if they do not have a grounding in several of the basic educational fields, such as civics, geography, mathematics, and so forth.I think that integration into the job market will raise people up from poverty.I think that the haredi leaders who try to keep their people… in the shtetl and [prevent them from learning] secular studies so they will not integrate into the workforce… are not fair to their people.The haredi leadership isn’t fair to its own people? Yes. The leadership, rabbis and also others, that do not allow people to integrate [are to blame]. It’s impossible to live only in your separate world anymore; the world is changing. You can’t live only on government allowances.I very much believe in civilian national service in the haredi community. I have no problem if they do not go to the army, they can do civilian service within the community [such as] Magen David Adom and ZAKA [rescue and recovery organization].Don’t your voters believe it to be unfair that the haredim don’t share the burden of defending the country? My son does 65 days of reserve duty a year and there is no equality, but I think that a pluralistic society can allow that there are those who serve but that you don’t need everybody, that way the army is more professional.Those who do not serve should do a civilian replacement service instead of military service.I am for everyone sharing the burden, but that doesn’t have to be in the framework of military service.Do Israeli Arabs also need to serve? What is correct regarding the haredi community regarding poverty and integration is also correct for the Arab community. However, regarding the Arab community, it is more complex.I very much think we have to think of a model that can help Arabs perform civilian service in the community, not out of compulsion, but from a dialogue.
What do you make of the nationalist-haredi agenda of someone like Shas renegade MK Haim Amsalem? Could you work with such haredi leaders? He is a very courageous MK. He came out against his community, against the leadership of Rabbi Ovadia [Yosef], and brought forth a new model of a haredi who learns Torah but who also joins in the civil life of the country and also learns secular topics. I think that this is a model for courageous leadership.Do you think you have a chance of getting haredi leaders to work with you given your reputation among the Orthodox as someone who is against religion? I am not a believer and I am not religious, but I am also not against religion. I am against people who use religion as a shovel to advance sectarian interests.I think in a proper state, like the State of Israel, we need a separation between religion and the state and I work towards separating religion from the state. I am against having an Orthodox rabbinate that forces us to live according to its values from the moment that we are born until the moment that we die and tells us how we will be buried. I very much want civil marriage but I am not against Orthodox marriage.I am not against religion and religious people; I am against people who use religion to compel others.You recently proposed a bill that would grant immigrant benefits to haredim who leave Orthodoxy. What was the impetus for this proposed legislation? I met with young haredi men who became secular and who left their previous lifestyles. They are like new immigrants in their own state. They do not know how to function in general society. If they want to integrate into the workforce they need to complete their matriculation. These are basic things. They are missing basic education and the state bears a responsibility towards them. There has to be something along the lines of an absorption basket of services.How do you respond to the ultra-Orthodox criticism that you are trying to entice people away from religion with fiduciary benefits?This law is not the solution [for haredim who want to stay haredi]. The state gives benefits to haredim who want to take them and there are programs for haredim [who continue to be haredi]. It is absurd that there are frameworks for haredim and for the secular but not for those who leave the haredi community.What is your vision for the State of Israel? Is there a place for Judaism in the state?I see the State of Israel as the state of the Jewish people, and also of all its citizens. There are more than just Jews here, and in order that people will be able to live in their communities and to observe their faiths I think we have to separate between religion and politics.We need complete religious freedom, as well as freedom from religion.