Let us ask some specifics about our struggle. First of all, in Gaza, the Palestinians voted for Hamas and they are now in full control. Are there strategies that Israel can effectively pursue? How do you win an ideological struggle when the [Hamas] government is encouraging the extremists?
It is extremely difficult, but one of the lessons here is that if the government is not responsible to the people [it will fail]. And we've seen that through history. Fatah, as we all know, did not provide social services and help the people the way Hamas did. Chairman Mao said first you feed the stomach, and then you feed the brain. I'm not the greatest admirer of Chairman Mao, but he was pretty smart in some ways. Shouldn't Fatah have understood the lesson here and taken care of the people?
US senator and Republican presidential candidate John McCain during his visit to Jerusalem.
Photo: Ariel Jerozolimksi [file]
So all I can say is that we have to try to regain the ideological high ground on Gaza. I do not know how exactly you do that. I've been involved in these issues for 25 years, but I can't give you a formula and say this is how you get Gaza back to some kind of government that is amenable to a peaceful outcome of this situation. I can say that we ought to help Abbas and ought to help Fatah, but we also ought to make it very clear to them about the need to take care of the people who are living in very bad conditions, as we all know.
Should Israel engage with Hamas?
I don't think so. But let me say this. I don't think I am the person to make that decision. That is the decision of a freely elected democratic government. I've made it a practice for the last 25 years to say, "I trust this government, I trust its leaders." My job as a senator, and in any position of leadership I might hold, is to work with the government of Israel, not dictate to the government of Israel what I think is the solution.
My personal feeling is that no [Israel should not talk to Hamas], because someone is going to have to answer me the question of how you are going to negotiate with an organization that is dedicated to your extinction. That is my personal view. But I am not going to tell the government of Israel, which may see an opportunity, [what to do]. But I don't see it myself.
The Palestinian argument to counter what you said is that they are trying to improve things, but that Israel, with settlement expansion, is making it very hard for them, that the Israelis are playing into the hands of the extremists?
I've heard and listened and been briefed 200 to 300 times throughout the years, and I understand and agree with our government spokesperson who urges "restraint," which is what the Bush administration recently said.
But I also understand that there are some isolated settlements that will also be closed down. That's a tough decision for the [Israeli] government. I've seen the film when they go in and remove people from settlements, and it is a democracy.
My job is not to make a decision as to whether the settlements should be expanded or not, but rather my job, I think, is to try to create conditions that would lead to negotiations and a settlement grounded on the belief that it is not just [about] my commitment to the state of Israel. If Hamas/Hizbullah succeeds here, they are going to succeed everywhere, not only in the Middle East, but everywhere, and Israel is not the only enemy. They are dedicated to the extinction of everything that the US, Israel and the West believes and stands for. So America does have an interest in what happens here, far above and beyond our alliance with the state of Israel.
Do you agree with the tactics Israel is using to stop the rocket fire in the south? Is the military doing what it should be doing?
I have great respect for Ehud Barak. I think he is one of the great military people I have ever seen and had the opportunity of knowing.
I can't give you a good answer as to how you respond to these rocket attacks. But I can tell you that I believe that if rocket attacks came across the border of the United States of America, that the American people would probably demand pretty vigorous actions in response. I think I know my constituency in the state of Arizona, and they would be pretty exercised if rockets came across our southern border, which will never happen, but they would demand a pretty vigorous response.
I would like to speak in the broadest terms in saying that when you look at all the factors that are at play here, when you look at the multitude of the challenges and the nature of the enemy, including a nation that is developing nuclear weapons and is dedicated to Israel's extinction, then from my standpoint Israel is probably at greater risk than perhaps it has been since 1947.
Does the National Intelligence Estimate - the problematic NIE, from Israel's point of view - remove support that might be necessary for military intervention in Iran, if everything else fails, or do you believe that as president you could muster that support?
I was critical of the NIE at the time. The director says now he wouldn't do that again, but I think the damage that was done by weakening the resolve of our European allies was serious.
This latest round of sanctions that was passed at the UN is remarkable in its weakness. I don't even know how you call them sanctions. So I believe the NIE was damaging, but I do have some optimism particularly where [French President Nicolas] Sarkozy is concerned. I'm glad the [German] chancellor is here in Israel.
Over time we may be able to gather more European support as the evidence becomes clear, as it will, that Iran is progressing on the path towards construction and acquisition of nuclear weapons. Perhaps [we may be able to] implement what I've been advocating for a long time - that is a League of Democracies, since it is clear that China and Russia, particularly Russia, will block real meaningful sanctions against Iran. That League of Democracies would be countries that share our values, our principles, our philosophy and our appreciation of the challenge that Iran poses to stability in the Middle East, and maybe we could act in concert.
